Speaker B [00:00:03]:

Hello and welcome to the Knowing Self Knowing Others podcast, the fortnightly podcast that talks about self aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe. If you want to be a better leader and a better work colleague, then join me, your host, Nia Thomas, as we talk to today’s Knowing Self Knowing Others guest.

Speaker A [00:00:23]:

Listeners. I’m delighted to be joined by Perry Timms today. And Perry is the founder and chief Energy Officer, which I think is a brilliant title at People and Transformation. HR Limited. And in 2022, Perry was ranked the number one most influential HR Thinker by HR magazine. Perry, you must have been thrilled to have received that accolade.

Speaker C [00:00:45]:

Thank you, Nia. Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely remember the moment I was at the ceremony and they read out the other two in the top three and I was number two the year before. So I thought, I don’t care where I am after that. And then my name came out and I’d not prepared or anything, but hugely honored because it’s kind of voted for by my peers and then assessed against things like the things you write about and the impact you have. So it wasn’t one of those where you have to pay money to be on a magazine cover. It was genuine and that meant so much to me, having been in the profession for a number of years and really loved it, but seen its kind of floundering moments and its successful moments. Yeah, I loved it. Absolutely loved it and still do now.

Speaker A [00:01:23]:

Amazing. Congratulations. Well, Perry, in that case, please do tell us a little bit about your history and how did you get to be Chief Energy Officer at your company?

Speaker C [00:01:34]:

Kind of self ordained, but I will start the beginning. So from Northamptonshire, which is known for its shoe industry back in the day, and my parents met in a shoe factory. So very sort of working class background, but that still lives in the council house. I spent a number of my teenage years in, so I didn’t go to university. I had a vague interest in the law, journalism and teaching. But I got an opportunity to join the Civil service after 6th form and thought, Great, I’ll do that and give that a go. And it was terrific. Actually. Civil service was really helpful to me. I was in the court service, I was in the legal side, but I got into It projects in the early 90s when tech was starting to really come into the workplace and I just seemed to really thrive in that space, so worked on a number of different projects and initiatives. And I loved the bit where a system was ready to roll and you had to train the users because the fear and trepidation, it felt like you built people’s confidence in a new way of working. And that led me to L and D and that led me into all sorts of things like organization design and development. And I did that in the public sector till well, for about 21 years. And then for six years I worked in the nonprofit sector as a head of Talent no. D. And then I went freelance in 2012 and so I set the company up then. We recently expanded, so there’s ten of us now. And the lovely thing is all the people who work with me, and that includes clients and partners as well, know that we stand for alternative, progressive, new ways of operating. And we’re a certified B corporation, we’re climate positive, we’re living wage, we sign the Menopause pledge and we’re a four day working week. So we’re doing all the things to say there’s a difference. It’s a real joy, honestly, to do the kind of things I do because I believe in them so much.

Speaker A [00:03:22]:

How interesting that you have all of those different facets going on in your organization. I’ve certainly seen you writing about your four day working week on LinkedIn. So listeners, if these are different things that you’re interested in, definitely connect with Perry and see what’s happening in the organization, you might be interested in doing very similar things in your organization. How do you define self awareness?

Speaker C [00:03:49]:

Yeah, I think it’s one of those things that sometimes people would associate with maturity, like maturing in years, experience and personality. I guess in thinking about this, I’d say the starting point is it’s something where you’re not kidding yourself, you’re not telling yourself a story because you want to. Self awareness is who really are you? I think there’s something really powerful in understanding that and so it’s a kind of definition, isn’t it? And it helps you understand your shadows, things that perhaps aren’t quite so good of your kind of personality and psyche, maybe not intentionally. You might be a bit over enthusiastic and frighten people, you know, that kind of thing. But also I think it’s about then your sparks when people are inspired by something you say and do and feel comforted and valued and all those kind of things. So I think self awareness can manifest itself in you knowing the shadows and the sparks and you make those adjustments and adaptations and you’re tuned in, I suppose, to the impact of you. But I also think it’s about not letting yourself off the hook. You might be a bit procrastinating on a piece of work and you might think, do you know what? I’ll do it tomorrow. And you kind of think, Hang on a minute, do you want to put yourself under that pressure or do you want to make a start now? Do you know what I mean? It’s those inner dialogic exchanges where you don’t beat yourself up, but you are almost like your own coach, I suppose, in in some respects. But I think it’s about how am I being? Not just what am I doing? I think that’s almost like the sort of streetwise definition, perhaps I’d share, to somebody who wanted an insight into self awareness, how are you being? As well as what you’re doing?

Speaker A [00:05:29]:

Oh, I really like that, yeah, it’s not just what you do, it’s the way that you do it.

Speaker C [00:05:34]:

There’s a song, I think, there yeah, most definitely.

Speaker A [00:05:41]:

What are your thoughts on the relationship between self awareness and leader effectiveness?

Speaker C [00:05:46]:

I mean, I think that’s a lovely question. It’s almost so obvious. You could say if we were in a court of law, you’re like, you’re leading the witness, do you know what I mean? Because self awareness and leadership, it’s almost like, don’t you have to have that? However, it is a bit sad that I think it’s lacking in some respects, so I would say it is absolutely critical, it might be the most critical part of being a leader, actually. The shadows and the sparks I talked about earlier on, I think is one aspect of it I’m kind of drawn to almost like three buckets. I suppose I could categorize people in in leadership positions particularly, and we’ve got some examples in the world right now, I’m not going to say who they are necessarily, but people perhaps with a little bit of a clinical psychosis, actually, whose self awareness is perhaps impaired by that. And so these are the sort of dictatorial narcissistic hedonistic type and it’s almost like, well, self awareness probably doesn’t even feature because maybe there’s some wiring not quite right in you to be that damaging or dangerous or whatever. And it is almost like we would blame them and we would talk to them as toxic individuals. And it’s like that’s not an untruth. But I don’t even think they’re bothered or they’re aware of it because they’d have a check and balance on it otherwise. I think now, I think my second bucket is people with really good intent who get corrupted by the system they’re in, the people they’re around. And so maybe their self awareness is there and it’s a little voice, but not quite powerful enough to stop them getting into something that’s not quite so good or positive and maybe even a little bit sort of naive might come into that. Naivety? But then I think there’s this third category which I would hope people would really, really aspire to, which would be where self awareness is so prominent and so part of who you are that you’ve got a real sense of what do I believe in that manifests itself, really in how I conduct myself and how I want to be known and what impact I have on other people. So that’s perhaps the very positive out of those two perhaps slightly more negatively slanted environments. But I think everybody’s aware of it, but I think there are people who are either incapable or restricted in practicing it and some people who absolutely confined it as almost like an ever growing aspect of who they are and what they are as a leader. I’ve seen some terrific examples of leaders who are so self aware, it almost oozes out and infects positively people around them, and then others who have the opposite effect, who just aren’t even aware that they’re toxifying people around them. So, yeah, I’d say it’s that it’s so critical.

Speaker A [00:08:30]:

So it feels like a small, medium and large self aware lead.

Speaker C [00:08:34]:

I’d say that’s probably the best way to describe it.

Speaker A [00:08:37]:

Tasha Yurik in her book Insight, talks about aware don’t care. And that seems to almost be the label on your littlest bucket.

Speaker C [00:08:46]:

Yeah, aware don’t care. Yeah, I mean, I think there’s enough data points and there are some people who will talk truth to power and stand strong and rebel and reject, and they still seem to swap them away because they just don’t care enough. And I suppose those people that are self aware might have had some experiences where they’ve been hurt or it’s been internalized or they’ve taken some real heavy blows in the past and it may have diverted their attention and made them sort of bring in some practices that don’t feel like them, but they think they’ve got to perform in a particular way. And as they mature, they’re kind of like, I cared enough, but I distorted that care into something I’m not. So I think there’s that sort of output as well. But yeah, no, don’t care. I think there’s too many people that have got that at the moment.

Speaker A [00:09:32]:

It’s interesting. I spoke to Matthew Felon and he was talking about gave the example of politics, where you have these individuals who possibly make a conscious decision that they’re going to take on board that awareness, take on board that feedback, or SWAT it away, as you say. And I have to say, when you were saying there are lots of people out there in the world that shall remain nameless, I always go to Donald Trump, because for me, he seems to be not even at a point of a weird don’t care. He’s not even kicking the littlest bucket here. He just hasn’t got to that point. And maybe we don’t want to talk politics, but for me, he is that real example of the Dunningkruger effect of really don’t know what I don’t know.

Speaker C [00:10:19]:

Oh, completely. That to the point that there’s a version of the world that he’s in that has absolutely no resemblance to reality at all. And people might say, yeah, well, what is reality? And get all existential on it. But he’s kind of immune, ignorant, muted to all that stuff, to the point that it’s just like, jeez, you really are the center of your own universe, and that’s all it is. So his narcissism, I guess, kind of defined as perhaps the most strong exemplification of it since, I don’t know, machiavelli or something like that.

Speaker A [00:10:55]:

Do you think effective leaders can be found at all levels of organizations and why?

Speaker C [00:11:03]:

Yeah, I think there’s something about the perhaps expectation and some people’s experience that the more senior you get and the more mature perhaps through experience and perspectives and acquired knowledge and so on, that that completely correlates to a self awareness kind of heightened thing. I’m not so sure. You know, I’ve seen some incredibly unself aware leaders and I’ve seen some incredibly self aware, more junior perhaps or sort of lower down the kind of pecking order or the power dynamic and it’s almost like it doesn’t match to that as a natural consequence, you know what I mean? And I think what I’ve seen in those leaders that perhaps are lacking self awareness in a very senior position I’ve tried to sort of amateur psychologists kind of diagnose a little bit about what’s going on there. They tend to feel or emit some signals about insecurity, perhaps even about the fact that they are kind of faking it, therefore they’re going to get found out at some point in time. And so they’ve probably got some kind of insecurity that’s really quite prominent there. Maybe it’s fear or maybe it’s legitimized, non legitimized or whatever it might be, but that self awareness could trigger something really positive about what they need to do with that. Maybe they just sort of sit back and fess up and go, do you know what? I’m in the position. That doesn’t mean I know everything. It doesn’t mean I’m capable in every dimension. So therefore I need people around me who can do things and work with me and so on and I don’t see too many doing that. Do you know what I mean? So there’s maybe a kind of cloak that comes with that position that people put on, and it’s rarely questioned, but I’ve also seen some incredibly self aware people who absolutely know their leader isn’t self aware enough. And what they realize is they’ve got to play a kind of tactical game to get the right outcome, like through them or even by them. And it feels like it’s more work than it should be. But we’re amazingly adaptive individuals and creatures and teams and stuff and so I’ve seen how that can kind of survive against the odds perhaps because other people compensate for it and then the self aware, lacking individual leader level doesn’t even know that. They don’t even realize that. So they can’t even channel it positively by going, yes, let’s delegate more and let’s create more openness things just seem to magically happen and they put themselves in the position as the author of that particular outcome and they’re like, well, not really, it happened in spite of you. So I don’t think it correlates with levels necessarily but I have seen some people who have clearly used self awareness to get into positions of senior ranking and they’re often people who in my third bucket actually are responsive and adaptive and do a really good job. Jacindra Ardern very topical in the news. I think she’s self aware enough to know a number of things. One, she really has pushed herself to the limit that she feels that she’s at in terms of energy and commitment and so on. And perhaps some of the writing on the wall is a bit of discourse with her political party and she’s not been dogmatic and said I’ll see it through or I’ve got the commitment. She said it’s not right for me now, so therefore something else needs to happen. I think that’s incredibly self aware.

Speaker A [00:14:23]:

Yes, I would agree. Thinking about the work that you do with teams, do you see that? I mean, we talked about people at different pecking orders and different levels of hierarchies in organizations. Do you see that different individuals are rising up with leadership characteristics, qualities, abilities within those teams rather than just those individuals at that strategic level?

Speaker C [00:14:52]:

I do, actually, and it kind of conforms to a bit of a belief of mine about the need for the dispersal of power. And therefore what that means is people have to accept leading accountability and direction setting and responsibility for that. So I’m a big believer in that because I think I see too much of that stifled out of traditional hierarchical structures where leaders are very power oriented and dominant. And I kind of think that’s a real shame because we’re missing out on some really key, diverse and potentially more insightful inputs to the game. I do think there’s something in the team dynamic where what could be set is that there and funnily enough, I posted on LinkedIn about this only today, that there’s a space that doesn’t have to be the dominant force of one individual because situationally it might need different things. And I think a team that creates and cultivates a kind of team sense of awareness will either allow somebody to step into that space because they’re like, yeah, totally. That’s right. For them, because they’re really good on data and that’s what we need here, or they actually encourage somebody who might be a bit reluctant, but they’re like, no, we believe in you to do that. We’ll back you to do that because we think that’s the right thing for us. And I think that kind of collective self awareness is not as evident as it could and should be because I think you can create this kind of hive mind, hive intelligence and almost like this hive spirit. And that needs collective and therefore dispersed levels of leadership accountability because it’s situational, it’s almost rotational, it’s fresh. I think it gives people a chance to step in when they feel it’s right for them and just grow and mature and learn through those kind of assignments. I’ve often said, and it’s backed up by Richard Hackman’s research at Harvard, that the team unit is absolutely the way to get things done. But it’s so often misfiring, not through any fault of their own, necessarily. Often it’s the leader who hasn’t created the right conditions and lacking self awareness themselves. That self awareness in the team is somewhat suppressed and it’s a real shame because it’s powerful force when it’s executed and supported well by that team.

Speaker A [00:17:05]:

I like that phrase you use, dispersed power. I guess for me I call it leadership at all levels, but actually I prefer that phrase dispersed power. So I think I might pinch that and use that in the future. And I think you’re right when you’re talking about individuals who may be at different levels in an organization, they need that backing of their team, their leader, the culture of an organization, to give them that support, to be able to step up into a leadership position. Even if they have those skills for that particular topic or that particular work stream that’s going on, they can’t do it alone. They can’t step forward as a leader on their own.

Speaker C [00:17:44]:

That’s a really good point, because I don’t think self awareness equals self confidence. Yes, I think you can be confident, you know yourself. That doesn’t mean you’re confident in what you’re about to do. If anything, it might create a lot more of those doubts and that impostor syndrome type of thing that sometimes creeps in because people are aware enough of their limitations, they perhaps overplay them a little bit in their own mind. Whereas I think what you’ve described is lovely. It’s the climate for people to go, well, I can step in here because everybody’s got my back and they’re not trying to see me do something bad or wrong. I’ve often called people Earth wires. You get some people who stop you over kind of megahertz, and under megahertz they just sense check you and you can go to them and you can say, if I say I’ll do this, how’s that going to go down? And they’ll kind of give you a sense of the reaction and you’ll go, okay, I won’t put it like that because that could confuse people. And it’s really helpful, like a critical friend kind of thing, because you know, they’ve got your interests at heart and the interests of the outcome and they’re not just about being nice to you, but they’re not equally going to punish you. So Earthwise, I think, are quite important in that whole self awareness raising kind of game.

Speaker A [00:18:56]:

Yeah, I really like that. One thing that a phrase that I use is that you need to know that you can mess up with backup.

Speaker C [00:19:03]:

That’s lovely. Well, I might nick that one myself.

Speaker A [00:19:06]:

Absolutely reciprocal pinching.

Speaker B [00:19:11]:

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Speaker A [00:19:51]:

Do you think leaders at the most strategic level of organizations have greater self awareness than leaders at other levels of organizations? And what experience have you had that informs that view, either through your own work or by working with teams where you’ve seen that in action?

Speaker C [00:20:08]:

It isn’t just the ticket to self awareness that you climb the ladder and it becomes a naturally occurring thing. It genuinely is that people in and amongst their kind of journey into those kind of roles are self aware enough to sort of pinpoint pivotal moments and when they sort of push through an insecurity of their own or a misgiving of their own, how they dealt with the crisis, how they recovered from a mess. So I think there’s something in that about again, it’s the stories you tell yourself, isn’t it? Right. I think there’s something in that. Now, what I’ve seen is that there are people who will tell themselves stories at a senior level because that’s given them some comfort and assurity. A little bit further down the line, I’m seeing people who are telling stories that are a little bit more relevant to port the thinking into the situation they’re then in. So one is almost like, I’ve got to tell myself this for me, and other people will have the self awareness to tell a story or enlighten others because it’s important for that moment, that decision, whatever it might. And that’s the thing I’ve noticed, and the reason I’ve noticed it is because when I’ve been preparing to help perhaps middle manager pitch up to a board about something that’s really, really important, they will tell me those stories. I know exactly why they’re telling me them. And I felt like I’ve had to translate them so that they hit the kind of egos, the awareness points and the sort of significance that others would place on it for them. Not necessarily the outcome, but for them. So we’ve quite deliberately plotted it. Where we go, what floats their boat then? And what do they like to stand in and be almost like the recipient of accolades for? And they’re like, oh, this, this and this. It’s like, right, let’s channel the message towards that. And it’s been kind of subtle. And I can tell the person I’m pitching with is really appreciative of that because they’d never have thought of doing that because they felt manipulative, maybe. I’m like, you’re just creating the conditions where it’s easier for them to say yes, and it’s worked. So I think it’s almost like I’m trying to be them receiving the message and understanding their drivers, but knowing exactly what matters to the person who’s pitching in to get the outcome. That’s how I’ve described that.

Speaker A [00:22:24]:

So there is something about both the communication and the message and maybe it’s about perspective that you’re looking at from both of those things and maybe you do things differently based on that.

Speaker C [00:22:36]:

Totally that yeah.

Speaker A [00:22:37]:

In terms of the strategic leaders that you’ve worked with, are you seeing that those that come for your support are already on a journey of self awareness or are you finding that you are having people coming and saying, wow, I didn’t even think about this. Are they in the small, medium or large bucket when they start that journey with you? And which bucket do they finish in?

Speaker C [00:23:00]:

Yeah, I am quite lucky. I often say to people that I’ve never had to sack a client. You know that phrase where it’s like I don’t want to work with them anymore? I do think there’s a little bit of preselection that they do before they even come to me because I guess I do have a space I stand in that for some would be like, well, we don’t want that and for others it’s like, no, we absolutely do want that. So that preselection I think is an indicator that I am largely working with some very self aware people. And I suppose in thinking about preparing for this, I was trying to almost like picture in my mind like the rolodex of people I’ve worked with and it’s like, what did they tell me about their self awareness? And lots of it was confidence in what they were putting forward was the right thing for the organization. The people around there was a certainty about the fact that they’re perhaps going against conventional thinking, but they know this is the pivot that’s needed. So that wasn’t an overconfident thing because that’s why they brought me in. They brought me in to add to the confidence and the capability perhaps which is really nice for me to then think about. And I haven’t done this apart from on this podcast actually almost like a self appraisal of me, do you know what I mean? I hadn’t really even tagged that until just now. So I’m really fortunate that I think I have been able to work with and therefore experience a lot of people with a very high level of self awareness and a very high degree of understanding how to leverage that. Because I don’t think I’ve ever had that uncomfortable conversation where a clients kind of went, that’s just nowhere near what we want. You’ve let me down, you’ve dropped me in the real deep end and stuff because I’d be mortified. Quite the opposite. I quite like it to be whether like, oh well, that was good, I didn’t know that was going to work, but you pulled that one out the bag, that kind of thing. So yeah, really nice and therefore I’ve often had a very I won’t say it’s not like client supplier relationship, but there’s a different dimension to it in terms of the sort of belief that we’ve created as well as the confidence in delivery. There’s almost like we’ve got each other’s backs. And I know in two months time you’re not going to be working with us anymore. But it’s not like you don’t care. You care enough to get it to the point. I’ve worked with charities and people in health care and stuff, and it’s like your work really is life or death. So I really do take it seriously, and I like to have that as part of our deal, and that tends to have been the case.

Speaker A [00:25:33]:

What do you think is an effective way to develop self awareness?

Speaker C [00:25:38]:

I think this is the $64 million question here, really. So I think there’s something about who you kind of surround yourself with. And I mean that in the nicest sense, the word like the network and the closer confidants and so on, that is a really good starting point because you do need independent commentary on yourself in order for you to go, hang on a minute, I was kidding myself there, wasn’t I? Or I let myself off the hook there, or one of those things I put in the opening to this. But as I mentioned to you at the sort of outset, before we hit record, I’ve been looking at some adult development theories and there does seem to be a kind of correlation, I think, between a level of maturity that isn’t just about the years on the clock. It is about sort of the experiences and the perspectives that you’ve had in the world. And there’s a couple of concepts around the socialized mind which is apparently about 58% of the population is kind of in that space where it’s defined by you being part of the relationships and the mutuality that you have around you and that you are very clear about your intent, your interests, and the kind of things you’re going for. And I think at that level, you are starting to develop a lot of self awareness. I think you’re starting to really pick a lot upon that. And then the next dimension is what’s called the self author in mind. There’s about 35% of the population on that. And what that means is I am my identity and I have those relationships because you’re not necessarily pursuing validation and goals. You kind of know who you are and what you’re about, and you have people with you. And I think if you are aware of those things, you can tune into the symbols and signals that are helping you kind of stack up your level of self awareness. But it needs other people, I think, to narrate and commentate and almost co create your level of self awareness. I don’t think you can build it in a vacuum. So that’s what I’d say. Just get the people around you who matter most about what they play back to you.

Speaker A [00:27:45]:

That’s really made me think in terms of people proximity. And COVID and simply not being around each other. Does that then put us in a position where in twelve months time, 24 months time, we’re going to be having different conversations about there is less self awareness because I’m around less people less of the time. Are you already starting to see something like that?

Speaker C [00:28:15]:

I think so. And I think what that then calls us to do is activate in different ways. So, for example, my team is 100% remote and we have the strongest culture I’ve ever known in a team. And that’s got nothing to do with me. That’s the way the team have built the culture. But we’re very deliberate about how strong we make our, even our text exchanges as being not just superficial niceties, quite deep, quite philosophical, quite searching, quite honest, quite vulnerable, quite raw and extreme in a way that actually, I would say, most teams don’t. So I think we’ve overcompensated by not being in and around each other with our narration of self, I suppose. So the stories bit, which is again in part of the sort of psychological development of humans, isn’t it? The stories bit. We are better at telling our stories of ourselves to each other in order to compensate for that lack of proximity. But I am concerned, and I like digital connections and remoteness, but I am concerned we will lose a little bit of traction on what could be self aware kind of behaviors.

Speaker A [00:29:22]:

Yeah, interesting. And I hadn’t thought about that until you were saying that. So in terms of the way that the language you use to communicate with each other, can you give us an example? Because I’m just thinking there are lots of teens who are now maybe 60% virtual. How do they change that communication style when they are virtual to make sure that they are building their self awareness and their feedback loop?

Speaker C [00:29:47]:

Yeah, brilliant question. First thing I’ll say is we’re not so open. It’s almost brutal and embarrassing. We’re not that far off the scale, but equally, we don’t sit on things that are important to us. So we have a ritual every day where we check in on Slack as a channel and we say, this is what I’m up to today, this is what happened to me yesterday, this is how I feel, this is what I’m taxed by, this is what I’m a bit saddened by, this is what I’m excited by. And we just attach emotional commentary to us in that format. But then to supplement that, we have a channel again on Slack and it’s a secret one, so it’s locked in and only we can get in there as a team. And if we post in that we know it’s important, we call it safe space. And if we put something in there, it’s like, whoa, stop everything. This needs attention. And that’s given us decompression, clarity, comfort, a huge amount of support. So I think you can normalize it in a way that doesn’t make it twee or forced or vulnerable in the way that people aren’t comfortable with. But we’re really getting good at being who we are in a virtual sense, and I think that takes practice. And we’ve had three years of it. And I’d say when we meet in person now, there is a real sense of familiarity and comfort, even though some of the team have only spent a couple of hours in each other’s physical presence. It’s like you’ve known them for years, but you’ve only met them for a couple of hours. That’s kind of where I think we might be headed towards.

Speaker A [00:31:16]:

I wonder then if there’s a real training skills gap in being able to tap into that, because I don’t think that is something that we as a work community are talking about. No, I’m not hearing that on the social media. I’m not hearing that on podcasts. So that’s quite interesting. Maybe that’s a new area where we were moving.

Speaker C [00:31:38]:

Yeah, I was asked for some predictions on 2023 for HR, and I refused to put predictions in, but I said we’ve got to invent some things and reinvent some things and I very strongly went for relationships. We’ve got to reinvent relationships to exactly your point.

Speaker A [00:31:57]:

What a wonderful conversation. Perry, thank you so much for joining me. It’s been great having conversation listeners. We will make sure, as ever, that we put all of the right links, all of the right information in the show notes for you so that you can head off and listen and watch to watch Perry’s TEDx Talk as well as access his website and find him on LinkedIn. But thank you very much, Perry. It’s been really great having a conversation with you.

Speaker C [00:32:22]:

Oh, near. I’ve loved it. Thank you for taking me into all sorts of dimensions that I found really enjoyable. Thank you.

Speaker A [00:32:27]:

Amazing. Thank you.

Speaker B [00:32:32]:

Thank you for joining me. Your host, Nia Thomas at the Knowing Self Knowing Others podcast. After every podcast, I’m going to be doing a top takeaways review of the things that I’ve learned from my discussions with guests, which you can find on my website. Knowingselfknowingeathers. Co, UK, LinkedIn, TikTok and the other main social media sites, rates, reviews and recommendations from you are the best way to get the word out about the Knowing selfknowing Others Podcast. Open your favorite podcast app. Find the Knowing Self Knowing Others Podcast take a listen to some episodes, give it some stars, and write a little review. A little word from you means a big deal to me. Make sure you bookmark The Knowing Self Knowing Others Podcast on your favorite podcast player and tune in to the next episode in two weeks time. The Knowing Self Knowing Others podcast is available on Apple Podcasts Spotify google Podcasts stitcher Good Pods pod Chaser amazon Music Podcast index podcast addict pocketcast Deezer.