Speaker 1:
Hello and welcome to the Knowing Self-Knowing Others podcast, the fortnightly podcast that talks about self-aware leadership with thinkers from around the globe. If you want to be a better leader and a better work colleague, then join me, your host, nea Thomas, as we talk to today’s Knowing Self-Knowing Others guest, i’m delighted to be joined today by assistant fire chief, chad Costa, who is based in the city of Petaluma in San Francisco Bay in California. And the reason that I’m talking to Chad today is that really, i was looking at social media sites to see where I was going to be advertising the podcast and happen to come across Chad’s posts Very interesting, very focused on leadership And thought it’d be great to have a conversation today about self-aware leadership. So I’m going to hand over to Chad to introduce himself.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, thank you for having me Essentially about 24 years in the fire service total with a wide spectrum of experience Cal Fire, which is a predominantly wildland agency at least it was back then through rural fire districts and now a city So it’s been a really interesting 24 years, a wonderful opportunity to work for, just from moving around to different agencies, a wide variety of people and all walks of life. It’s just been a great experience to really hone who I am today, or who I want to be, as a leader, learned a lot of good experiences and some bad that you learn from. That’s just the reality of management. But 24 years got the assistant fire chief essentially in charge of operations at the fire department. We’re a dual role paramedic, fire-based system So as an ops chief, it’s challenging because it’s not just solely focused on fire. We do have transport, ambulances, and so we do have a wide variety of service that we provide at all levels. So that’s kind of me. I’m happy to be here. I do have, as you stated, a strong passion for leadership, or changing culture or adapting, trying to get organizations and people to understand 2022 leadership and really what the culture of an organization should be and how that can make your organization successful with recruit and retention And just really, how do we make our organizations a better place to work so that when people wake up in the morning they want to come to work? Not every day, that’s not my expectation, that’d be unrealistic But that’s a big one for me. I’ve had stages in my career where I’ve woken up and really dreaded going to work, and a lot of that is revolved around management, leadership, the people I work with, and so that’s where my passion kind of drives from. So thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:
That’s brilliant. And, of course, yes, I’m based in the UK and our fire service and our paramedic services are completely different organizations, So your experience will be quite different to what we have in the UK. So very interested to get into our questions to see how your experience differs to ours in the UK. How do you define self-awareness?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, interesting. So self-awareness can be defined in different ways, But ultimately I would say it’s probably one of the most important traits of any leader or any manager. Essentially, we could go, we could talk for days about this and go down a bunch of rabbit levels, But for me, you can’t expect your people to do things that you wouldn’t do. You can’t hold people accountable for things that you don’t hold yourself accountable for, And so those two things are really critical to me, Meaning how do I as? a supervisor, as a leader, ask for someone to change or make adjustments if I’m doing those same tricks. So how do we know, how do we gauge what we can and can’t do and how successful that we will be with that, unless we have self-awareness of who we are as a person? You know, the psychology side of this is extremely important. I think psychology is undervalued substantially in the fire service Just having a better understanding of who people are and how they are and how they tick. But how would that be useful if I don’t even understand how I take and how I think and my morals and those, how those morals are aligned with the ethics of the organization? So it’s very important that we understand ourselves, that we self reflect and look in the mirror, that we have that humbleness, that when we make mistakes or make errors own up to them, that we’re the first ones to stand up front and say I made a mistake and I learned from it and hopefully won’t do it again. That’s where self you know, to me self-awareness is the key to all of leadership, because if you don’t have that you’re going to fail substantially in some area.
Speaker 1:
It’s so interesting that people I’m talking to about self-aware leadership, the modeling behavior, is coming up so frequently as an absolutely vital element of leading a team. As you say, if you’re behaving in a one particular way and you’re expecting your team to behave in a completely different way, how do you realistically think that that’s going to happen?
Speaker 2:
If someone out there thinks it is, please call me or shoot me an email, because I don’t see how you can be effective. And it’s where I see failure in leadership often. Often is someone especially with rank especially with rank, because there’s this falsity in the fire service. That rank, you know, means everything. It really doesn’t. It doesn’t matter what batch you wear, what rank you are, whether you’re an informal or formal leader is just as important. In fact, i’d submit I think informal leadership is more important than actual formal leadership. But how people fail is by having these expectations or these policies or procedures that they don’t follow. And as soon as somebody tells me you got to make this change and I’m like you do the same thing, you lose credibility in that and that attempt immediately.
Speaker 1:
What are your thoughts on the relationship between self-awareness and leader effectiveness?
Speaker 2:
What’s interesting to me is the pathway of how an individual becomes self-aware, And I would say that it’s buying. you know again psychology, Like it’s just. it’s so intriguing to me to have a better understanding of people, how they take, how they learn, how they communicate. But, like I believe there is a growth. typically there’s a growth in self-awareness throughout your lifespan or throughout your career And, for whatever reason, there’s triggers within your life or your career that accelerate that self-awareness. So I don’t want to skip ahead. I’d hate for this to be a question later, but I was going to kind of self-reflect on myself and how that was sped up by a few instances to where I really realized that this is extremely important to my future success. So if I go down that, am I going to skip ahead? Do you want me to say that?
Speaker 1:
Go there, go there, absolutely, you’re very welcome.
Speaker 2:
This is really important to me And it really is because, again, the nexus between successes is direct for me And I would share that. I believe there’s going to be people that are listening to this and can have some connection here Marriage, kids and life experiences meaning substantial events that humbled me. So what I mean by that is well, i’ll start on the marriage and the kids. Thank God I’m married to the wife I have, because what my wife has done for me is stopped me many times and said what are you saying? You know why do you think that way? Maybe the perspective is that’s wrong. Whatever it is, it stops a human being for a moment And if you’re grown up enough to do it, it makes you look in the mirror and say you know what? that reevaluation of what I said, how I acted, how I handled the situation, just that trigger to reevaluate yourself and your actions. It transitions to growth. It just does. And there’s some people out there that transition and reflect and blow it off and move on and just you know what they’re going to walk off the cliff and there’s nothing I can do about that. That’s just is what it is. But some of us, including myself, are very thankful for that experience, because that self reflection has led to growth, it’s led to inquiry, it’s led to research, it’s led to well, maybe I am wrong about this. Let me gather some more information. That’s the nexus, and when you’re a person that wants to be a leader, or if you are informal or formal, that’s what you got to do is challenge yourself, challenge the norm, challenge your thought process, because you may be right, but if your perception is, you’re always right. I 100% guarantee you’re not. The last one was experience, so let’s relate it to fire service. I wrote an article about an event that I had that I almost killed seven people because of a decision I made, because of ignorance, because of ego, because of a lack of self reflection in the moment of like what am I doing? Why am I doing this? Is this the right thing? There were triggers in the incident that told me it wasn’t the right thing, but I just had that macho knuckle dragging firefighter perspective. It really, really, really changed who I am as a person because after that incident and in fact still do it to this day, even though it was many years ago self reflection.
Speaker 1:
I’m very interesting to hear and absolutely those life events do make you reevaluate and to make you look at the world. They bring you up short And I think I probably add to that illness in yourself, illness for others, bereavement in family members, bereavement in friends. They change your world And you’re right that changes that response to a reflective response. So you don’t react, you respond, and I think you’re right that that it’s not always about work, it’s about life and the people around you And that really does change you. Do you think effective leaders can be found at all levels, and why? So you’ve already touched on that, so I want to know more about that.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, i think where I touched on that was my statement right around against self-reflection, but I believe this is true, at least from my experiences, that informal leadership is. I’m 100 percent in on the fact that your informal leaders in your organization have more The controls coming to mind. That’s not the right word. Effect, again, that’s not the right word. But they affect the organization more than the formal leaders of your department. They just do. Your informal leaders are ingrained with the mass of your group, whatever that is, however large your organization is, and if you’re an informal leader, you’re looked up to in a different way than a chief officer or a captain or something like that. You essentially don’t wear the rank, but your effect, your effect on the organization and your effect on people has, again, i think, more effect than those of rank. And so the challenges for us that are formal managers meaning chief officers or something like that the challenge is is to not be lopsided one or the other, but really to try to achieve sort of a formal and an informal leadership role in your organization, because that’s where respect is grown, that’s where people will give you the benefit of doubt when you make mistakes, like I make a mistake, i believe most of the troops that work with me they understand that it wasn’t an intentional mistake. It was a mistake and I owned it and I’m going to learn from it and move on. And that’s where the rank really doesn’t matter. And I do think that there’s people in your organization that do not have rank that have a significant impact on the culture of your organization, and that’s why I think you can be effective at any level.
Speaker 1:
I really like that idea of having both informal and formal leadership in the same individual, because a lot of the conversations that I’ve had have suggested that you’re either a formal leader because you’ve got the title, or you’re an informal leader and you don’t have the title. But you’re right, it’s about that balance of human interaction, being a human in the workplace and then also having that job title that says you have to do some things as well, and I really like that idea of balance. Is that something that, when you are coaching or nurturing people within your organization and bringing them up through the ranks, is that something that you talk about? Is that something that you develop actively with your colleagues?
Speaker 2:
It’s interesting. So we’re talking a little bit about mentorship, and mentorship is an interesting topic. I think it’s very important, obviously. I think it’s probably one of the most important parts of a formal or an informal leader is to mentor those that are following in your footsteps. Absolutely 100% do. But I also have found that that connection between a mentor or an mentee is natural. It can’t be forced. It just can’t. We force it. In the fire service, you know, we put people on a shift and we say this is going to be your mentor. That happens, and the problem with that model is is that that nexus doesn’t always work. Sure, so, to answer your question, what I would say? it would be false of me to say that I do it for everybody, but I would say there are people either in the organization, outside the organization, people that have reached out to me on Facebook, emails, whatever it is, that kind of exemplify the traits that your organization is looking for And there’s generally a connection with some that there’s more give in the mentorship and more give in the Hey. This is what I think will be helpful for you. This is what I think you should self reflect on. This is your trip, positive and negatives. I tend to give more to those individuals, just naturally because there’s some type of connection or some kind of like what you put into this is what you’re going to get out of it type concept. But I would like to add that it’s important at all levels that at some point there is some mentorship, there is some honesty, there is some Hey. This is really how I feel about you and your actions. But I guess to summarize I do unconsciously there’s more effort given to those that you have that connection to.
Speaker 1:
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Speaker 2:
Yeah, I’d hate to say yes or no answer, but I’ll say what my opinion is. My opinion is yes, leaders at the most strategic level typically Yeah, this is. This is gonna kind of contradict myself, because the reality is that everybody’s different. Like people are gonna listen to this and be like my fire chief doesn’t appear to self-reflect at all. Or my fire chief appears to self-reflect all the time. It’s really individual based. It’s based on that individual. But I would say what should happen, or naturally what should occur in, at least in my experiences, is the higher level you move and the more perspective you have. At a higher level, as you rise up, you typically have a broader scope or a broader lens of perspective. That tends to generate a more self-aware person, because your actions and your words and your decisions have a bigger impact on your community, on your organisation, on your family, whatever it is. So hopefully the goal would be that the higher you rise, the more self-aware you are, because hopefully you’ve stuck your foot in your mouth a few times or done things the wrong way or had life experience as you spoke of, whether it be a family or at work There. You had those experiences where you know what I messed up or I’m off base here or I’m being rude in this situation or whatever it is, or I’m not listening to what people are telling me. You would hope, the higher you rise, that there is a higher level of self-awareness, and I’d submit that, if it doesn’t, you’re probably not a successful fire chief or a successful leader in an organisation. I just don’t see how you could be.
Speaker 1:
That is so interesting because the number of guests that I’ve spoken to who have said the opposite but have said exactly as you have said is in an ideal situation. This is exactly what we would be expecting the leader to have more self-awareness but actually, because as you rise up an organisation, you become further and further away from the front line and that actually means you have less self-awareness. Have you experienced that too.
Speaker 2:
Yeah. so what I was trying to articulate is it’s very common that the opposite is true, But what we’re trying to get at well, at least for me, why I’m here today isn’t to talk about the failures of leadership. It’s to talk about how do you succeed and be successful. So if we change that mindset or forget people to understand that just because the longer you’re in the service or the heavier bad kids doesn’t mean that you can be less self-aware because now you know everything. It should be the opposite. It should be your scope and what you say and what you do and your meaning and your decisions now is even broader and more impactful. So shouldn’t we self-reflect more before we make decisions? or when we do make decisions or do act, shouldn’t we think a little bit, go back and think about what we did and what we said and how that affected that broader scope of people? Yeah, that’s what I’m focusing on is. you’re absolutely right. You see it all the time. You see, the higher you get, the less self-aware you get. I would say there’s a direct nexus to that exact point, to a failure in leadership 100%.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, i agree with you most definitely. What do you think is an effective way to develop your self-awareness? So, for these leaders who have got to these positions and are really struggling with their self-awareness, how do they manifest that? How do they develop that?
Speaker 2:
So I think sometimes it happens organically, based off life experiences, based off age, based off having children, based off marriage, based off, whatever it is, your life experiences, your interactions with people, the times that you make mistakes right, you make errors, you do something that you look back on like man. I would do that differently next time. Organically this occurs. The development of self-awareness, i think organically happens. Not for everybody Again people are going to be like well, i know, this person has never happened. Yeah, i get it. Not everybody should be leaders. Not everybody is. Not everybody should be chiefs. I’m telling you there’s a lot of crappy ones out there. Why? For a lot of reasons, and one of them is probably pretty heavy on what our topic is today a lack of self-awareness. The other thing is, it takes an individual to be humble. It takes an individual to have the desire to be good at what we do. And when you have that passion to lead, when you have that passion for success of your organization, you should It should translate into things like this Sit down with you today And, if we knew each other and worked together, share with me your thoughts about how I’m doing or how I did, or how I made, like the decision that I made. How did that resonate amongst the troops, whether it’s a union leadership conversation, whether it’s a peer conversation, whether it’s a boss conversation, whether it’s just somebody that you just had an interaction with. Finding out the perception of you and your decision is so important because our brain has our own perception And then we tend to go to the people that have the perception that we want to hear. But it’s stepping out of that box. It’s going to those people that you don’t normally hear from or you don’t normally get positive feedback from, and having that uncomfortable conversation, getting out of your comfort zone and really self-reflecting, looking in the mirror and hearing other perspectives. And a key to that is not the hardest part, is the action of doing that, but the real difficult part sometimes for people is to hear what is being said and make positive change. Because I’ll tell you this Do not, do not try to act like you care and then not change, because everything you do from that day out is pointless to that individual. It’s a waste of time. So if you’re going to put yourself out there, take it seriously listen and act. And then all of a sudden, this organic situation becomes more prevalent, more natural. Those conversations start happening and you, you know. I want to kind of summarize one thing. Most leaders, chief officers, say this I have an open door policy. It’s probably one of the most misused statements in the fire service. Maybe it’s everywhere, because it’s like I have an open door policy. Ask yourself this Does anybody walk through the door? And if your answer is not very often or never. you do not have an open door policy. I promise you you don’t. And an open door policy doesn’t mean people walk into the door facetiously. It’s a statement. It could be someone picking up the phone and calling you. But my point is is that that’s where that self-reflection, that self-awareness, that’s how I think we get there, and I don’t think it happens overnight. I think some people just naturally do it more than others, but we should all be striving to improve.
Speaker 1:
What do you do in your practice that, formally or informally, sets out that feedback structure? So you said, you ask people, you ask the question. Do you do something so that this happens on a regular basis for you?
Speaker 2:
No, i don’t, and maybe I’m wrong, you know, maybe someone listen to. This is like you should. What I’ve found is The most useful feedback, the most useful information, the most useful tools are not forced, and so if I have a formal meeting with a Subordinate and I say, like I just, it just seemed, when you truly have an open-door policy, you truly care, you have respect of people which is the hardest part of this job is earning respect Organically, those conversations occur organically. People feel more comfortable sharing a Negative thing with you, which is tough. Tough conversations are hard. I I don’t have a formal way that happens on a regular basis and and maybe that’s a weakness of mine, but I just I just have found that when I do that, sometimes it’s fake and sometimes I’m not really sure if I’m getting what I really want to get Because I’ve forced the conversation. Now, that being said, there is the ability at the coffee table To have off the cuff conversation with somebody. Your coffee table in your firehouse is probably the most important place in a fire station because those are sometimes where those those organic con of Conversations occur. When it’s forced, i’m not saying it’s not useful, i’m just saying I worry about the authenticity of the conversation when it’s forced.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, i definitely understand that, because when a manager asks somebody to come into the office, you’re already in a different position than when you’re having a conversation, and I think it’s about your own viewpoint, on your own reflection is to be asking those questions when you’re in the moment And you have that opportunity, because there’s learning to be had.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and there is some formal ways. I mean we have annual evaluations. You know those are really good times to ask questions, not just about your employee or whoever it is, but also to ask. You know those are opportunities to ask, but I don’t have anything like structurally, every quarter, every month, i ask you how I’m doing. Those are just more organic conversations that occur in the right time.
Speaker 1:
Thank you so much for joining me for this conversation It’s been really, really interesting and to hear the perspective from the fire service, which is a service that I know very little about, and we will make sure that your website and your Facebook page are all shared in the notes so that all our listeners can find out a little bit more about your service and your views and your thoughts on leadership. But for today, assistant Fire Chief Chad Costa, thank you so much for joining me. It’s been a pleasure.
Speaker 2:
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:
Thank you for joining me your host, nia Thomas, at the Knowing Self Knowing Others podcast. After every podcast, i’m going to be doing a top takeaways review of the things that I’ve learned from my discussions with guests, which you can find on my website, knowingselfknowingotherscouk, linkedin, TikTok and the other main social media sites. Rates, reviews and recommendations from you are the best way to get the word out about the Knowing Self Knowing Others podcast. Open your favorite podcast app, find the Knowing Self Knowing Others podcast, take a listen to some episodes, give it some stars and write a little review. A little word from you means a big deal to me. Make sure you bookmark the Knowing Self Knowing Others podcast and your favorite podcast player and tune in to the next episode in two weeks time. The Knowing Self Knowing Others podcast is available on Apple podcasts, spotify, google podcasts, stitcher, good Pods, podchaser, amazon Music Podcast Index, podcast Addict, pocket Classes, deezer and Leeson News.
